BBB9: Interview with Alex Groenendyk

Welcome to the Books, Brands, and Business podcast with your host, Chris O’Byrne, from JETLAUNCH.net.

My guest today is Alex Groenendyk. Alex is the author of This Is Who We Hire: Employers reveal how to: Get a job. Succeed in it. Get promoted.

This a really fun interview because Alex reveals how he has sold thousands of copies of his book, making well over half a million dollars, by doing a joint venture with a university. He also tells us how he used LinkedIn for a powerful marketing campaign.

Chris: Hey Alex, welcome to the podcast. Let’s go ahead and jump right in. And why don’t you tell us what your latest published book is?

Alex: The book is called, This Is Who We Hire. And the tagline below it, which you kindly helped formulate for me is, employers reveal how to get a job, succeed in it, and get promoted. So really, a book aimed for students to help them get a job.

Chris: Got you. That answers the question of who that book is for as well. I’m really curious about your writing process. How did you go about writing it and what did that process look like for you?

Alex: I think the first thing I would say is, it was quite a long process. Because the book actually had its origins when I was still president at Fiserv, and we were struggling to attract and retain students to go as entry-level candidates into our business, we were on a mandate to grow our business by orders of magnitude $25 million per year. That’s a sizable business in its own right. And we, therefore, needed quite a few students to come in. And we found that very difficult. We couldn’t find students who were aligned to our way of thinking, our needs. So we never recruited enough. And within six months, quite a few of them would have already left us. You fast forward a couple of years later, we’d be lucky if we had two or three left. So it was a significant issue for me, that prompted me to start writing internal manuals on how to do this better. We focused on ourselves and what was wrong with us initially.

Alex: But then when I retired and I got reacquainted with my own children, and came to a rather shocking conclusion that I wouldn’t have any of them. And that’s when I thought I need to actually also start putting some thoughts down to help them. And that thought just grew and grew, as my thoughts grew along with it into the beginnings of a book. Then I started talking to some people too and actually help me really structure it and create a framework for it. And once I got really excited, it was then just a matter of knuckling down and writing it. It was suggested to me to use ghostwriters, and I did dabble with that a little bit, but I found what my voice didn’t fully understand exactly what I was trying to say. And I very quickly started wasting money and thought, no, I’m going to write this myself.

Alex: That then led to a phase of me getting up at four or five in the morning. And my wife would find me still in my pajamas at four or five in the afternoon, just hammering away at the keyboards until I’d got the bulk of it done. That probably took me about a year. And then I took another year to just re-edit it and edit it and edit it. I used at least three separate editors, including of course yourself, Chris. I think that would be probably one of the biggest messages I would give to anybody. You can get very caught up in your own writing and think you’ve articulated something brilliantly, until someone else reads it and points out to you that it’s not so clear, you then suddenly start to see it through other people’s eyes. So the more you edit, the better, I think. Certainly, in my case, the combination of somebody applying marketing 101, and that is identify your target, and really, therefore focusing your writing on that target.

Alex: And then lastly, I actually had some students who were my target also take a run through in an editing capacity. And I think that’s what finally helped shape it up into something that worked. So a process that had its origins years ago while I was still in the industry, but once I knuckled down, it probably took me about a year to write and about equal amount of time to edit. And as I said earlier, I think the editing process is absolutely as important as the writing a lot of people think, got it written, done, maybe give it one edit and we’ll be good to go. I think you really get the benefits of different eyes on your work that are critical and can help you.

Alex: So that’s kind of the process as far as producing the book, after that it was getting it in your hands, Chris, getting it designed. I initially approached you from a point of view of getting the book designed and published. But what was also very helpful to me was your eyes on the text as well, designing the cover, and then helping me actually all loaded onto Amazon, and getting the ball rolling out of Amazon. So I think that’s probably about the sum of the process. So it was more of a journey than a process, wouldn’t you say, Chris.

Chris: Yeah, for sure. Is there anything that you do differently?

Alex: That’s a good question. I’m not sure. I wouldn’t waste money on ghostwriters again. So I would caution anyone listening to be cautious of getting sucked into an expensive ghostwriter who will then start producing material charging you through the nose and then before you know it, you’ve got a bunch of stuff that you’re now trying to edit, back to your voice and correcting issues and misunderstandings. So I was very glad I stopped that process and went back to writing it myself. The editing, that was painful, but I’m very glad I did it. The book has succeeded beyond my dreams. So I think I’m very happy with how it went.

Chris: Did you have a launch process for your book or did you just release it quietly?

Alex: Once I realized you were ready with the book, Chris and getting ready to put it on Amazon for me, I went into overdrive on my LinkedIn accounts. I maximized all my connections, everybody I could think of that I’d done business with any relationships I could think of I connected with them on LinkedIn, built up a connection base of I think it was about two to two and a half thousand people. And then as soon as you were ready, I started sending them all messages saying the book is coming out in two days. Book is now here and got them to buy a copy. I set the price very cheaply initially, so that I wasn’t imposing too much on these connections. And my main objective was twofold. One, get to number one in my categories on Amazon, which happened within 24 hours or so from launch because all that list was prepared and ready to buy.

Alex: And the other thing is I wanted lots of reviews to give the book credibility. The whole exercise was really so that I could go to my nearest university, the University of Central Florida, which is, depending on the day, either the largest or second-largest university in the US. I wanted to go to them with this book. And my objective was to get them to make it required reading in the business school, and I needed some credibility. So being able to go to them with a book that was number one in its categories, and had a growing reference base, I managed to very quickly get about 60 to 70 references on it, reviews and that worked, it meant I was coming along with just a little bit of credibility and confidence, and they took me seriously enough to actually make it required reading in the business school where they have about eight and a half thousand students. So that really summed up my launch. Few other little details that were helpful. You may remember me, Chris, calling you at all hours in the morning saying it’s number one can you please post something on Facebook?

Chris: I do remember.

Alex: I was so worried that it wouldn’t stay on long enough so I would be calling you up saying quick put something out on Facebook it’s number one and then I could share it and that sort of stuff, but it was nice to have a third party saying congrats Alex your book’s number one. So that worked very well. So that’s more or less how I approached it.

Chris: And you were smart about it, you were smart because you chose what is more or less a social media platform, but you chose one that fit very well with your books and your book audience.

Alex: That’s a good point, Chris, because everybody told me that what I really needed to do was start putting lots of tweets out everywhere. And I did actually spend a lot of money on that. But it wasn’t hitting my target. We did some Facebook ads, it’s coming back to me now. I only really remembered the successful bits. It’s the story of my life. I only remember my successes.

Chris: That’s the story of everybody’s life.

Alex: What I had forgotten about was that we did tons of tweets that didn’t really bring anything in at all. And it was really the LinkedIn list where I made connections with people. And that helped me back me for a very specific target, I.e the business school here on my doorstep.

Chris: Now, when you were reaching out to people to let them know about your book of LinkedIn, what kinds of things would you say to them?

Alex: Message one was just reinvesting in the relationship again, just kind of reminding who’s who, and what are they doing now and just reconnecting. Message two was… Because the way it would work, Chris is I would say, hey, what are you guys up to? And then they would go, well, we’re doing this, this and this, what are you up to? And that prompted me to be able to say, well, as a matter of fact, I’m about to release a book. And I’d love for you to buy a copy and give me your review if that’s not too much trouble.

Alex: And then as the day approached, I’d say I send them another message very specifically saying, okay, the book is coming out right now, we would really like to try and get it to the number one slot, would you help me? And I would say, out of my two and a half thousand connections, over 1000 responded, which very quickly got me to number one. Another aspect actually of this, too, is picking your category. So there were various categories that looked like they made sense, but the competition within them was very strong. This is where you came in again, Chris was helping me look at categories within Amazon where I’m not up against the super books, the super authors in this space. And we found internships which made perfect sense. We couldn’t find a single major author in there. And so within the internships category, we got to number one literally in a few hours from launch. So choosing your categories wisely, not just based on relevance, but also based on competition is something that I would also advise anyone looking to launch.

Chris: Right, right. And not just for the sake of getting that bestseller status, which can be very useful. But also, there are a lot of people who do still shop on Amazon by category. So they’ll go to that category and if your book is right up there at the top you’re much more likely. One more quick question about LinkedIn. Did you send out those messages to people like using LinkedIn messaging service, did you do them one at a time? Did you hire somebody to help you with that process? What did that look like?

Alex: That was ugly, Chris. I did it one at a time, it was exhausting. But I was using the copy and paste function for the base of the message. But everyone I topped and tailed added a sentence that made it connect and relevant to that particular relationship. So that it didn’t just look like a bland marketing message. I think it would have been a tremendous turnoff to all these people if it had just been a very, very bland message. So that’s actually an interesting question I hadn’t thought about that. I literally clicked on each profile and looked at what they would have been doing, and try to craft a message at least a top and a tail, that was directly relevant, so that it genuinely looked like an old relationship from the past reaching out, rather than just a bland marketing message. But it took me many, many hours of doing it, it was a pretty exhausting process, but it paid off.

Chris: It paid off. And nowadays, people know when it’s just cut and paste and there’s nothing personal and they just sense that, but we’re so used to, it’s a computer, it’s so easy to automate things that we get into that habit instead of putting in the hard work and you put in the hard work. I want to get into something that’s going to be fun. It was fun for me to hear about it initially, and I think it’s going to be fun and very useful to everybody that listens. Tell us about the process of after you got your book launched, how you got into the college, what happened along the way that didn’t work out so well, and then how it has up to now ended on a very positive note?

Alex: What I did was, I started also linking in with students, and particularly aimed at the business school locally. And I found one side got a few, they were connected to other students so I could just follow the path. And I think I got to about 500 students in the business school. And offered them the book for free as part of an inverted commerce research project, to see what they thought and whether they found it helpful. And I got very good response from that. Also the team, I mentioned earlier that I actually employed some students 12 of them from UCF to help me edit the book in the first place. So I use their connections, and they helped me with that. And we got about 500 students to look at it. And then I offered them free Kindle versions that they could read, so it didn’t cost me anything. And to get some feedback, and if the feedback was positive, then again, I asked them to put student reviews up there. And that worked really well and gave me more credibility.

Alex: And then I just had an incredibly lucky break and a mature student who was looking for a job, she was about I would say, 32. She’d gone back to college. She had a very good relationship with the professor in charge. And she was one of the ones that I’d sent the book to. And she applied it and it helped her get the job. And so she went and told her professor the story and said, listen, I’ve got this great book it was free, obviously was trying to market, but I have to tell you, I think it’s much better than the book you’re using from Pearson’s. The college was using a Pearson’s book that was $200. Suddenly I get a call from her saying, listen, I had this very interesting conversation with the professor, he would love to have a coffee with you. Can you do that? I was in the car before the phone call had finished and on my way.

Alex: My meeting with the professor, we just got on really well. I walked him through especially the concept of the career cycle, the steps that you just keep and keep repeating and that it has a structure to follow. And he said this would be perfect, I can structure my entire course around this. I’d like to use this and I said, please be my guest. What should we price the book at for your students? The university didn’t have to pay anything it was just purely the students and I said, well, I’m charging $200 for the book now, and I’ve had at least one student say yours is way better and on my first glance of it. I haven’t even read it all completely yet, but it’s much, much better. So I’ll tell you what, let’s go for 35 bucks. Because I wasn’t out to rate the students, my motivation was never money, although it has been more successful in monetary terms than I ever would have imagined. But what I wanted to do was have an impact on students locally. That was my main driver.

Alex: So I wanted these students to be able to afford it and buy it, learn something from it, and we would see results in terms of better job outcomes. So, with great fanfare, the book was adopted by UCF and all the students got an email saying this is now the new textbook, please go out and buy it. And initially, I got this massive wave of purchases, both on Kindle and on Hardback and we were off to the races and very happy. That lasted for a year. Then, when a batch of students graduated, there are various organizations that will take their books and resell them for like a dollar a book or whatever to the next wave of students.

Alex: So I suddenly watched my sales absolutely plummet at the beginning of the second year. Then we also found that some enterprising students that had actually taken the trouble of scanning every single page and creating a free PDF for all his buddy students. At that point, I was thinking, well, this is probably where this little story ends. But then, the professor put me in touch with one of his students who was particularly good with computer programming. And we brainstormed a way to put the whole book on a website just using simple WordPress. And the key to this was to make sure that all the quizzes and all the assignments and actions can only be completed through the website. So that now meant that every student had to buy access to the website and submit all their work from the website. We had the built-in mechanisms to ensure it was one student per access code. And that all tied into the metadata of the student, which would be printed on every assignment, you couldn’t not print it. So in other words, if another student had used his login, it would come up with that same student’s name and number and metadata, et cetera.

Alex: So all of a sudden, we went back to, in fact, we went to even higher rates. I think at my highest probably about 70% of the students bought the book in the first year. In the second year, I went down to probably about 10 to 15%. But by the middle of that year, we had dealt with that and come out with a whole new website that also included some simulations, they could go into, some self-assessment tests that we created. So suddenly the whole experience was much better, much more interesting. We got 99% of the students went in, there’s always some idiot that doesn’t know what to do or feels they shouldn’t or can’t. But we got right up to about 99% and very, very high satisfaction ratings for me.

Alex: Previously, when they read the book and then did the quizzes, the average score was 75%. As soon as they went through more of an experience approach with practice quizzes and tests, et cetera, their whole retention rate went through the roof, we now currently have an 89.2% average score. This is across eight and a half thousand students. So we’re delighted by that. I’d love to see it get into the 90s. But then the dean who’s quite interesting, he’ll go, oh, yeah, well, it’s obviously because you’ve made it all too easy. We get some sort of criticism, I guess. But moving it onto the website was the best thing we ever did. Because it allowed us to then start using technology, we can now add in videos, we can get students to tell us their stories and contribute it into the website.

Alex: So we have fantastic stories of first-generation students who’ve come through, use the techniques in the book and got jobs with people like Apple or Google or some of the top, we just had one of the top… Morgan, JP Morgan. So it’s clearly having an impact, it’s working. I don’t want to emphasize it too much, but it is now extremely lucrative.

Chris: What impresses me most about that story is, you probably originally set it up this way online. So, to help prevent people stealing your book, stealing your intellectual property, just a very ingenious way to prevent that. But then you went on to make that as valuable and useful for the students as possible. It wasn’t just, you could have put it up and then been done with it. But you put in a lot of work to make the end result which is how well they learn and how much they get out of that class, which really isn’t your responsibility, but your responsibility is to provide the materials. Which a lot of people do just haphazardly or they just do enough to get it up there and make it look good. The same thing that you did for your book you did for the class, you just kept adding things you kept making it better.

Chris: I want to mention something about quality first, which is, a lot of authors look at the end picture of how much money are they going to make. They don’t necessarily think about the quality of the work they’re doing. But if you hadn’t put in at least two years of work into your book, you would never have ended up with such a high-quality book. And then when the people at the college looked at it, they would have been like, yeah, or that older students, she probably would have never even mentioned it in the first place because your book was just meh. Instead, you’ve made it this really amazing thing which took a lot of hard work, but you made it. An amazing book with a lot of quality, which in turn, led to all of these things. So all of it could be traced back to your commitment to making that an actually great book, and not just something good enough to get you on the bestseller list and move on. So good props to you.

Alex: Well, thank you. I think it’s one of the things actually I preach quite a lot in the book, which is about your purpose. And if your purpose is just, how much money can I make in a nine to five job? You won’t find happiness and probably won’t actually achieve much in the way of significant earnings. There’s such a consistent theme in terms of people who have a purpose, who do so much better and are so much more driven and for me what I wanted was a bunch of students that got excited about their future, I wanted to see the light bulbs visibly turn on so that they start choosing target employers and aligning their skill set for that and networking and connecting with them, and creating a community of students and employers that are all on the same wavelength.

Alex: Not just about the students either, the professors now for example, can go to this website and look at where a student is. Any student they can see how far into this are they, are they ahead or behind? What are they scoring on their quizzes, and they can then take proactive action such as sending them an email or calling them up saying, I noticed that you’re still in lesson four, you should be in lesson 28 now, what’s going on? Are you struggling? Can you not cope? Whatever, so that they can up the overall job outcomes at the end of the day.

Alex: We joke that there’s a swing six, out of every ten students, there’s two at the top, who will be brilliant, regardless, there’s two at the bottom, almost whatever you do, it’s very hard to change them. But that six in the middle, if we can move the needle for them, and encourage them through more interesting technology, videos, simulation, good content, and being able to keep an eye on them and encouraging them at the right time. That whole experience can have such a dramatic effect. So that was, and I go into this to demonstrate to you my interest and commitment to use your words in the purpose of this whole thing. The fact that it has actually now made approaching three-quarters of a million dollars is beyond my wildest dreams and I’m thrilled, it’s not what I set out. I never thought it would actually make anything like that. But I’m hugely thankful for that. And we actually give quite a lot of that money back to the colleges as funds for disadvantaged students. The real purpose here, for me, it was, I would like to think at the end of the day, I’ve had an impact on as many kids as I possibly can.

Alex: So that was kind of more the driver, and I think to your point, if you don’t have that driver, it’s very hard to put two-years-worth of hard work into something.

Chris: And speaking of that driving and what led up to this, I am a little curious—who is Fiserv, and what did you do for them?

Alex: So, Fiserv, I’m not sure how big it is now, because it’s merged several times. But when I was there, it was about a six-billion-dollar business that automated banks. I was president of their third-largest division that was based here in Florida, but I also ran all their international operations. So basically, it was coming up with computer software solutions, so that a bank, anywhere in the world can completely run all its operations, right from soup to nuts, everything and anything a bank needed to run we had the computer software to do that for them. So that was the business we were in.

Chris: Okay, and it was making about six billion. I just checked on Wikipedia, they’re now at 17 billion. That was three years ago. They’ve gotten big.

Alex: Yeah. I left them a good 20 years ago now. They have seriously increased in size.

Chris: And so it was that experience of working for them and trying to hire and being on the hiring side that educated you on what you needed to write the book, educated you on the process with the students, what everybody needed.

Alex: So the Fiserv board had an edict that every division would have to grow by a certain percentage. And to me, that translated into orders of magnitude, 25 to 30 million per year that I would have to increase my revenues by. And that in its own right, just the increase is a significant business. So I needed a lot of students to come in and get involved with the programming. I wanted fresh blood, fresh talent, new computer methodologies, and so forth to keep us at the leading edge. And I needed types of students who were bright, committed, willing to travel, customer-focused, and team-oriented because we operated in large teams all over the world. And the big issue I found was students were coming to us just as a, well, yeah, know Fiserv recruits a lot of people, I’ll go for the interview, see what happens. None of them were really that committed. And as soon as we put pressure on them if their big proposal had to go out the door, and we all had to work through the weekend to make the deadline, the students would all submit their resignation the following Monday. It was a big challenge.

Alex: So that made me very aware of the disparity, and once I started talking to senior people at UCF about this from my point of view, and hence the whole book was the employer’s viewpoint. And in fact, you coined the phrase Chris employers reveal, that was very important to me. It wasn’t just a, oh, I’m a successful businessman, here’s my way, do it my way, follow me. I’ve talked to a lot of other businesses, I’ve talked to a lot of other CEOs around here and collected all their experiences as well and then try to turn that into a step by step process students could follow. So they looked like the perfect candidate for the job they were applying for. And I think the process works.

Chris: Yeah, it sure does. I remember what it was like for me when I was first getting into the engineering field and trying to get hired. Then I remember, of course, editing your book. And as I edit, I am learning everything I can. It really is a fantastic book on anything that you need to know, to get hired. It’s like the perfect formula. I was just so impressed by it. Do you do anything with personal branding? Some authors, they have a personal brand, they’re still actively pursuing some sort of online business or whatever it is they’re doing, and the personal brand is important to them. Do you focus at all on personal brand? And if you do, how has that book helped you to position yourself as an expert, build authority, et cetera?

Alex: So, I’m very careful about this, Chris, that’s actually an interesting question. The short answer is, I keep my brand to being a businessman that has traveled the world, built significant businesses, bought and sold businesses and recruited and hired and developed a lot of people. I deliberately do not position myself as an education specialist, because then that starts to rub professors up the wrong way. So when I’m talking to students my brand is, this is what we look for. And I can tell you from personal experience and talking to all the other CEOs, this is what you need to pay attention to. So it’s that kind of brand. When I’m talking to the professors, it’s you guys are the education specialists. I can tell you what businesses are looking for. Together, let’s present it to the students in such a way that it actually up the job outcomes, which is increasingly what professors are starting to be measured on now.

Alex: But I don’t want to get you in the way of their egos in terms of education methodology and all that sort of stuff. I’m not looking to build a gigantic brand in anything beyond where I was as a businessman, partly because I’m retired and I’m not really building any major businesses or really trying to get into the education space as an educator. I’m really a facilitator, a content provider, based on the experience of who I was. Does that make sense?

Chris: That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, definitely.

Alex: I think to anybody listening to this if they are thinking about doing something similar, unless you have all the right education degrees behind you, don’t try to position yourself as an educator, because my experience has been anytime I’ve come even close to that. It’s annoyed people. They don’t see me as an educator. I’m just a businessman to them. I’m not the smartest guy in the room when I’m with the professors. But what I’ve heard conversely to that is that if you are in the education space, having a book can help you build your brand as an educator. So, in that sense, a book can be very useful for brand building. But that would never have worked for me because I have no credibility as an educator just yet.

Chris: Do you have plans to write another book?

Alex: I’m not sure. I think this book actually the content could still do with lots of improvement but I’m probably three or four revisions of it from what’s currently on Amazon but is now all on the website. And there’s just a never-ending process of adding this, adding that, removing this adding another diagram, adding another video. So I’m plenty busy with what it is we have, which is not necessarily a great business strategy but again, at the end of the day, I am really happy working with UCF, even if that is my only ever client. A lot of universities have their own version of this. And I have spoken to a few of them. And in every case, they looked at what I had done and came back and said, well, that’s interesting, we have our own programs, and it’s going to take a lot to replace them but we love this and this and this concept. We would like to incorporate that within our own syllabus. And, was I okay with that?

Alex: And again, I’m thrilled with that, because if it helps students if it works, so be it. And at the end of the day, let’s be completely honest, Chris, very few of these ideas were truly my own in terms of anything that I could patent or get really upset with that someone else uses, but all these ideas have evolved, I’ve learned from experience. I read pretty much every competitive book I could get my hands on and took some of their best ideas and reworded it in a sort of more of a different way and set a different context. So I have some of my content being used in three or four other universities, but it’s just smatterings here and there, never resulted in a complete adoption of the whole thing. Whether that will happen somewhere, who knows, but it’s not a top focus of mine. And to your original question, I’m busy enough as it is right now with nearly 9,000 students on my doorstep because I lecture, I actually lecture some of the parts of the book, and I do quite a lot of one on one career coaching at the university.

Alex: That was a very long-winded way of saying, no, I’m probably not going to write another one at this point.

Chris: Got you. Your comment about the ideas, what’s one of those quotes that there’s no new idea under the sun. But especially you remind me of Isaac Newton who said, if I have seen further than others, it’s by standing upon the shoulders of giants. That kind of is our role in a lot of ways, is to build upon what’s come before us, to improve to carry it further. I love that. As we start wrapping things up here’s a question I like to ask that makes you think a little bit what do you want to be remembered for?

Alex: That is such a tough question. I think there are levels, at the lowest levels I would like to be seen as a nice guy that wanted to help, was a reasonably Okay dad, a reasonably okay husband, and didn’t do damage to the world. And in that sense, I’m proud that the business I was involved in my entire career did not pollute. We enabled lots of people all over the world to become engaged economically through the banking systems. I built businesses that at one point, my division, we worked out that we were supporting close to 4000 families. There’s that aspect of it. I would like to be remembered as a guy who helped a lot of kids in this area. It’s kind of funny my wife will say, it’s getting a bit monotonous, we’ll go into a local restaurant and all the servers and people like that are students from the local university. So it’s, oh, Mr. Alex. Yes, I’m halfway through your book and chat, chat, chat. My wife, Jackie, sits there getting a bit fed up.

Alex: But I have to say there is an ego aspect of me that does enjoy that, that in the local community I feel I’ve done a bit of good. I don’t know if that really answers the question in an epic way. But in my limited way, those are the kinds of things that I think I’d like to be remembered for.

Chris: I love it. Now, where can people find out more about you, find your book, et cetera?

Alex: So the book is, This Is Who We Hire, which you can find on Amazon or you can find the website. The website is called thecareercycle.com. You can look at the website, and if you like it anyone can buy access to the material. You don’t have to be a UCF student. The website looks very UCF-ish. It has four words from the dean and the professors and lots of student reviews on it and stuff. But you’ll get a flavor for it. I mean, that’s probably where I would most like people to go, is to thecareercycle.com because that’s what we’re doing today. The book on Amazon is a snapshot of how it all was three years ago.

Chris: It’s a beautiful website. I’m looking at it right now. So I’ll make sure that all that’s in the show notes and people have access to that as well. And I just want to give you a huge thanks for being on the show, for letting me talk to you, and for everything that you shared that I know is going to be hugely valuable for everybody that listens.

Alex: Well, it’s my pleasure. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed working with you on the book, Chris. And I’ve enjoyed this chat.

Chris: Thank you. Thank you very much.

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